Nick Hutchison, BookThinkers: Book marketing, reading habits, and endurance sports for entrepreneurs

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom pod. We have Nick Hutchinson with us today. Uh he's the CEO and founder at the Book Thinkers, a best-selling author, a keynote speaker, top-rated podcast host in full Ironman suit today. Uh my man did the 70.3 last weekend, and he's about to do a full 140.6 soon. So, Nick, uh how's it feeling? >> I'm just trying to be like you.

That's what I'm trying to do. >> [laughter] >> I I need to do another Ironman. I'm prepping for a 125K. Um yesterday I had a pretty good session on the treadmill. Uh 14 km/h sustained for uh 10 minutes. It's pretty fun while watching an ultra. That's a big hack, you know, like you run and you you're in deep in the pain cave while watching an ultra documentary.

Have you used uh some of these hacks yourself? >> Absolutely. I do that when I'm on the indoor bike trainer all the time. I'll watch like the Iron Cowboy documentaries, or I'll If I'm on a long run and I just have headphones, I'll listen to David Goggins and Can't Hurt Me or something like that. >> Yeah, Lionel Sanders um is another good one, right, on YouTube?

Have you find out about Lionel >> that out. No. >> That's like the the pain cave godfather. I mean, technically uh I think it was Courtney Dauwalter or Sally McRae that coined the pain cave as a term, but uh yeah, the the number one representative representative of the pain cave in the triathlon world is Lionel Sanders, fellow Canadian. Uh love this guy.

And by the way, um I was about to refer that book to the last guest of the podcast, your book guy, right? Uh Ken Rideout. Uh you've heard about Ken? >> Maybe. I'll have to check him out. >> like this um Irish guy in New York. Uh he won a bunch of marathons. Very tough tough as nails this guy. Really good book. Uh if you want to listen to that one. >> Is it The Other Side of Hard?

Is that the book you're talking about? >> Yes. >> Okay. I'll get that. I'll get that. >> And that's a good one. Um sort of traumatic one but good to listen on the the run uh because Ken also had a tough childhood but Sally McRae uh she recently launched a book. Was a bit weirder book because it was like a two-part and the the second part is not released yet.

Is like the first covered up her her past and the second book is going to cover her present which is her runs. What do you think about that book strategy? Is it uh it's the first time I've seen that one. >> Yeah, I don't think I've seen that strategy before. That's interesting. >> What other ultra books um I mean Goggins is like a masterpiece, right?

Like Can't Hurt Me one and two. I I I know that the second one is not called Can't Hurt Me. >> Yeah, it's called Never Finished. >> Never Finished. >> Yeah. >> Uh both of these are masterpieces. Why do you think uh these are so good? Because I I mean I read uh a thousand books. You also did read that a whole bunch of books. This one is one that I constantly repeat.

I never get rid of it and it's one of the five books, right? So why do you think it's so good? >> I have a lot of thoughts on that. David was in such a bad position in terms of growing up in an abusive household and then going to school in racist communities and then ending up unfulfilled and overweight. You know, in the United States today 40% of people are obese.

So I think it just it strikes a chord with a huge population. And then his turnaround was so incredibly dramatic that I think it gives everybody hope. Now, there's a funny saying about David Goggins, Charles, which is like even David Goggins doesn't want to be David Goggins. And I think willpower can only bring the average person so far. I don't have a broken upbringing like David.

And so, while I get motivated by it and I can relate to parts of the story, I more admire him than can relate to him. And so, I focus a little bit more on strategy than pure willpower. And I think that's a little bit more of a sustainable approach. But I've listened to that book, Can't Hurt Me, like five times. And I just love how imperfect David is.

>> Yeah, but two things, right? You and I, we don't have broken pasts. We had pasts. We had a happy childhood. But we can still relate to the guy like crazy. That's one thing. And second, you mentioned systems, right? Well, David is parts of our system. I'm very systematic like you do. I hack the [ __ ] out of my ultras, my my triathlons. Like people ask me, "Oh, Charles, did you train like 30 hours a week?" No, dude.

You think Do you train 20 hours a week? No. Do you train 10 hours? No. I train like 4 hours a week or something like that. And I still do these do these training, right? But I supplement like crazy. I invest tons in my health. Like I invest like at least a couple grands in my health per month. And I've been doing that since 10 years, right? So, but yeah, no good comments on Goggins.

I think he went to that company you told me about, Scribe, right? Scribe Media. And JM, I feel, McCormack or or whatever his name is. Um you run a similar company, right? I do feel that Goggins was sort of luck for them, right? Because like, "Oh, this military dude, like who is he, right? Why do you feel they took a bet on him?" And how predictable would the book's success because I'm pretty sure you you filter your client and you estimate their probabilities of success when they come to you.

>> Yeah, so my company BookThinkers, we're just on the book promotion side of things. So, we don't do the actual publishing. In fact, we work with Scribe and a whole bunch of other publishing companies. And then we just help take a book that already has some success and bring even more exposure to it. But I think a book like David's, you know, a little bit about his process.

He had different publishers that were bidding on that book originally. But what happens in the traditional publishing space today is you forfeit your IP. You're selling your intellectual property to the publisher for some money up front and you get almost nothing on the back end. And I think a lot of those publishers wanted to moderate his content a little bit.

I mean, it's pretty it's pretty out there. He's pretty straightforward with his language and transparent about the things that he went through. So, going with Scribe and then they have this imprint Lioncrest Publishing. Going with them gave him the ability to retain his IP so that he could go out there and speak and build other products and services related to it without having to pay them royalties.

I think that was a good move. But really, he just wanted to retain the real raw aspects of the book. At the time, you know, Navy SEAL um Army Ranger you know, triathlete, long-distance runner endurance athlete. Like he was just gaining so much momentum and there really was, you know, all of those things were becoming more popular at the same time. And I I just think he placed a bet on himself really by going with them.

And then, yeah, the book caught fire. He was also one of the first people ever to do the audiobook in that style where >> Which is weird. The narrator reads the chapter and then he does like a mini podcast interview after each chapter to share behind the scenes stuff. So, I know that when I refer that book to people, I go, "Don't read the physical book because you're missing some of the best stories.

They're only in the audiobook." And that fear of missing out just kind of caught fire. >> Right, right. Yeah, Adam, the guy is a bit odd, right? He's like a bit on the better side of things when you read the the book. He's like, "Adam, dude, just shut up." >> [laughter] >> But Goggins is Yeah, he's very gracious in the in the book. The slash podcast, they call it.

Ryan listened to the book so many times, I can tell you about the micro details. But it's crazy. Question is, did he have the Joe Rogan appearance when he came to them? If so, it's like a no-brainer, right? Cuz Joe Rogan or anytime someone goes on Tim Ferriss show back in the days, that was like a hockey stick, right? And it's just the right time to to sign these clients.

I'm I'm not if he had that back then. >> I know that the interview with Jesse Itzler on Joe Rogan about living with a seal. I know that was definitely before everything. And that was probably like a little bit of a market test. Like that book did so well, and everybody said, "Who's the seal in this story?" And at first, David wanted to be anonymous.

And then that book took off. >> Yeah, the stories kind of took off. So, that was probably like some proof in the pudding that it was going to be a successful story. >> I was like Goggins with zero EQ back in the days, like >> [laughter] >> zero. And then he progressively like learned how to interact with humans. It's pretty hilarious. The The today's version of Goggins is better, right?

I would have not want to go out on a run with Goggins back then. But nowadays, like, oh, maybe he's a bit more human and he have like interactions with the dude, right? It's not like a [ __ ] gorilla that just like growls at you. Um, how did you first get into books? How did you first get into triathlons? And what's the magic in merging the two, aka listening to audiobooks while you're on your bike or running?

>> Yeah, well, I'll take the floor for a couple of minutes, but I think you'll find this story interesting. So, I was not much of a student growing up. I was more of the athlete, not really the academic. So, I played American football and I also wrestled. And I loved playing sports. I did not love the classroom. I was one of those kids that was always capable.

Like I was famous for having a 0% homework average in my AP calculus class. So, I could do the work, but I was just sort of choosing not to. School didn't excite me. But when I was in college, something flipped. I took an internship going into my senior year of college at a local software company. It was a sales internship. And my boss, Kyle, brought me on a couple of local sales trips.

And Kyle was a cool guy. He drove a new white BMW. Kyle was making good money. He was the director of sales. He would like to go out and have fun and party. And so, I said, "I want to be like Kyle. If he listens to podcasts, I should, too." And so, I started listening to some shows. This was back in like 2015, 2016. One of those was the Tim Ferriss Show.

And I listened to all these successful people talk about how they became successful. And so many of them were giving at least some credit for their success to the books that they had read. And a lot of the personal development classics were popping up, right? Books like Think and Grow Rich or How to Win Friends and Influence People. So, I realized if I am not reading because books aren't cool, that I'm also forfeiting a better future.

I'm going to make less money. I'll be less healthy. I'll have worse relationships. And so, I just put the ego aside for a minute. I went to my local Barnes & Noble. I grabbed a stack of 10 books, and the rest is history, man. I fell in love with reading as a way to solve problems and build skills and satisfy curiosities. So, I started sharing the books I was reading on social media because my friends and family were sick and tired of hearing me talk about the books.

And I built a following of other young professionals interested in a better life and achieving it by reading and implementing books. And as my audience got big and big or bigger and bigger, I had authors reaching out to me asking asking if I could help promote market their books. And I built that into a full marketing company. I mean, today we've got 15 people on the team.

We serve hundreds of authors a year. We help them promote and market their books in a variety of different ways. And you know what, Charles? Along the way I met a bunch of triathletes. You know, these successful business people that >> Savage is >> Yeah, they they exit a business or they retire and they have all this money and all this time. You know, it's an expensive sport or can be.

And they all get into endurance sports because it's a way to keep that same business endurance type vibe, but then they apply it to their bodies, which usually they've been neglecting for a long time. >> I have a sort of skin right out, yeah. >> I just, you know, I started working with all these crazy clients who were like, "Hey, you should get into this sport.

You should get into this sport." And so, I thought the business brain of me said, "If I get into this sport, I'll be able to build better rapport with these people and close more business." And so, that's why I got into it. And then, of course, you know, it becomes addicting for its own reasons. >> So funny like how you got into these things. Me like books, my mom got me into books like early and words.

I was always good with words. I had a very vivid imagination, right? So, I can play out a better movie reading stuff than watching an actual movie. Movies are a bit more boring for me except if it's a masterpiece like Blade Runner 2049. Shout out to Denis Villeneuve from Montreal. And triathlons, it was my business partner's stepdad. He was like a 50X Ironman.

I was like dude, I'm running 10K's and it's already [ __ ] hard. How can can I be like this guy? This guy is like a [ __ ] legend. Can can I be like this guy? And that sounded impossible back then. Look at me now, you know? And I started as a as an asthmatic in this world, right? I was born asthmatic. So, it's like [ __ ] you, you know? Like I am not asthmatic.

The school system was sort of against me also back then. Look at me now, I'm a serial founder, extremely successful. So, is there's also like a middle middle finger component to you. It's like what Goggins says, right? Will you go to your grave as a best version of yourself or or will you be like the loser that society built, you know? >> Yeah, those deathbed metaphors and and like brain exercises, I spent a lot of time thinking about death.

In fact, I have a tattoo on my neck that says memento mori. Remember you're going to die. And one of the books that had the biggest impact on me early on was a book called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware. Oof. It gives me goosebumps every time I talk about it. She for the audience that doesn't know about the book, she spent the last couple of days, weeks, or months with people as they would die.

She was a palliative care nurse. And she would just talk to these people and they all had the same regrets. And the number one regret is something like I wish I would have lived a life based on what interested me instead of live a life based on what interested everybody you know, everybody else. And so early on it was just hey, I'm going to go for it.

I'm going to live a life where I minimize regrets instead of maximize regrets like the default programming that our society tries to put on us, right? Overweight, broke, unhappy, unfulfilled, divorced. I don't want those things. I want a different life. And by the way, becoming an Iron Man, I mean, that just defies all odds. And you're right, it's like a middle finger to what society tries to get us to be like.

>> Anything is possible. That was their slogan, right? It still is, I think. >> Yeah, yeah. And it's so very true. It really is. >> Right. Hmm. Podcast, I also Yeah, John Lee Dumas, shout out to John Lee Dumas, right back in our days. Uh I got like into that that rabbit hole. Makes me think of uh guy that we talked about, I think, last time that we spoke, David Senra.

Deeply obsessed with books, that guy. Uh I I love studying his story. He was like a a sales rep or something, hitting like 35 years old, and then he got obsessed [snorts] with one book. Was it Esther Lauder? Was it Warren Buffett? Was it Steve Jobs? But then his obsession never stopped from there. What is so addictive about self-improvement, right? Cuz I've gone through that phase.

I think I'm sort of out of it, or I'm getting back into you know, the podcast train with Founders podcast, but even Founders podcast, I'm getting bored. Um I'm getting to I'm getting to the question of of your learning stack nowadays. I've gone through the phase of doing deep researches with AIs cuz audiobooks were a bit too boring for my brain, or not advanced enough.

I feel books a lot of books have agendas also. They're trying to sell me something, and I just want like the pure information. So, at which phase are you right now in your learning stack? And how has it changed since the advent of AI? Give me like your your learning routine. >> Yeah, it's it's a great question, and I'll tell you what, I'm still I would say the primary learning mechanism for me is still long-form physical paper books.

And I have we could dive into why, but I I love everything. I love audiobooks. I use a couple of different AI platforms that are specifically for books. Of course, I use the general AI platforms to do deep research as well. Um I'm a business owner, we're a scaling business. So, you know, we're implementing all sorts of systems and measuring data and I also have a bunch of different mentors, like people who have done what I want to do times a hundred X and they're working with me to jump over the milestones that I'm at in my career.

You know, I'm a young guy, I'm 32 years old. I'm going to be in this space for another 50 years. And so, I think the learning will be endless. I'm just genuinely curious about the world and what's interesting about learning, whether it's books or AI or anything in between, is that the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. I mean, there's an infinite amount of information out there.

You read one book on fasting and autophagy and you realize there's an entire like you can spend the rest of your life researching just that subject. So, I mean, today I use all of the tools, but still long-form physical paper books, that's my go-to. >> Yeah, and then or talking to Jason Fung, I guess, right? Like having them on your podcast is definitely like a a good part of the learning stack.

You need to talk with the guy and ask the questions that you have. If you talk to so many smart people and you've already researched the topics with books, audiobooks, podcasts and you supplement it with AI research, then your quality of questions will be even greater on the podcast with this guy. >> [snorts] >> How do you get this guy on your pod? What's your strategy to have him allocate your a bit of his attention span to you?

>> Yeah, well, you know what's beautiful? I've I've found a great hack for this, Charles. So, my podcast every episode features an author, and we do a deep dive into their book. So, I get to ask my follow-up questions after reading it. And every author is a little insecure when they're about to launch a book. They're insecure about the number of copies that they're going to sell and how people are going to think about it.

The more successful you become, generally speaking, if you don't do the inner work, the more insecure you become as well because there's a bigger risk. And so, look, my first podcast interviews were with authors like Jim Kwik who wrote Limitless, and we dove into the brain, or Grant Cardone who wrote the 10X Rule, and we dove into thinking big, or Robert Greene who wrote The 48 Laws of Power, and we talked about power dynamics, or Ryan Holiday.

I love stoicism, and we jumped into stoicism. And so, I've interviewed all of these people, Alex Hormozi, and the list goes on and on. And I The reason that they choose to work with me is because I'm helping them sell a book they're about to launch, and that's the cheat code. It really is. >> Right. Okay. Hmm. I'm skeptical on books, right? Like I said, I don't read books almost nowadays cuz I find their value to not be as good with on par next to a deep cloud research with a fable, for example, it's like humongous.

It just scrapes everything, right? Or a notebook LM, right? Like you just ask notebook LM to scrape everything about one person, make a video, like my brain will digest that stuff like way quicker and just go on a very long run and listen to all of these notebook LMs while I run, right? Which is great for from a neuro biochemical perspective. Um So, granted that, what do you think about the the last elements that I just mentioned?

Do you think >> Here's what I have to say about that. Yeah. >> Let me just formulate the question. Do you think that book will stay alive for that long? And then tell me if I would launch my book, right? Because I thought about it many times. I did have micro versions of my books. How could you help me to commercialize it and make it like a perennial book?

>> Sure, great questions. So, depending on where depending on the research, depending on the study, somewhere between 60 to 80% of the inputs to our brain are visual. And so, by default, if you're only listening to something, and the visual input is taken up by the scenery while you're running, or by the road while you're driving a car, or by your house while you're doing chores, or by weights if you're in the gym, you're at a disadvantage from an input perspective.

So, I like physical paper books because I know that I have a better chance at retaining the content, and then allowing my subconscious to identify opportunities to implement it in real life and actually run the program that I just installed, if I'm reading a physical paper book. I like audiobooks better. So, my preference is to consume just audio information, but I know that from a science perspective, at least the data that I've studied, adding the visual element, which can be taken up by a video that an AI creates for you, that strengthens my information.

I also like the structure of a good nonfiction book, not a book that's just trying to sell you something, but a proper nonfiction business book where the author states maybe a hypothesis, then they go into all of the supporting evidence, and you're building this argument with the author. Then you go through all the case studies, which summary apps usually toss out, they're boring, but they just help you retain the information because they're a form of repetition.

And then, and diversify experience. And then, as you get closer to the point that the author makes, you have a better foundation to attach the point to. And then, therefore, I think the program gets installed a little bit deeper. One of my favorite books is called The Art of Learning by Joshua Waitzkin. And he's a multi-time chess champion and mixed martial arts champion.

One physical domain, one intellectual domain. And he talks about studying subjects so intensely, so deeply that your subconscious can identify opportunities to implement them. It's like knowing a chess move without having to individually map out every opportunity, you just see it. Or in a mixed martial arts match of some sort, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or whatever, you could just do the switch or do the move.

You don't have to think consciously about every single opportunity. And you can achieve some of those same things by going really, really deep in one continuous lane of thinking for a long time inside of an AI tool. Most of us aren't as disciplined as you are, Charles, because we get distracted. We just look for the summary, we go, "Oh yeah, that scratches my itch.

I get hit with the dopamine. I can visualize myself implementing the solution. It's so obvious." And then, you move on, and you never do anything with it. And Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich and Outwitting the Devil, he says, "Action is the real measure of intelligence." And I just feel like today, AI doesn't get us to action often enough.

It just scratches the surface level itch, and it makes like we're smart. There are some AI tools. There's one coming out that I'm actually an advisor for, called Sinai.ai. Sinai as a reference to Mount Sinai, where God hands Moses the Ten Commandments. And this platform, it has legal access to all of the great, amazing books. So, it's trained just on that container of information, and then it creates a custom version of the book for you.

So, instead of reading Think and Grow Rich, >> that. >> you can read Think and Grow Rich for 32-year-old Nick Hutcheson, and it's trained on my entire back end. >> I'm sold. >> Yeah, so that's coming out soon. I'm excited for that one. >> Yeah, I'll check him out. Shout out to my mom again. She got me out of my young party alcoholic phase of my life with Think and Grow Rich.

Um I just connect the last two episodes cuz I had another guy that would be great on your podcast. You could come on his podcast, and we discuss about that. My mom keeps coming out, so shout out to mom. She doesn't get enough recognition. >> Shout out to my mom, too. Yeah. Shout out to all the moms out there. >> mom, too. Um two book routines and learning routines I'm going to throw at you.

One that I stopped, and one that is recent, which is pretty hilarious. Back then I would read books before Ben. You talked about paper books, right? I'm not bullish on paper books cuz I would have literally a stack of 10 next to my bed, and then I would read, and that's really much that reflects my brain, right? I have a nod brain. Um and you make me think.

You're like, "Oh, imagery." But, you know, when I when I listen to audio books, I can imagine everything in greater details. I have great connection with this body. I'm a very physical person, so I'm not sure how you call that, but like moving your body, and I think it's like kinesthetic cognitive or something like that. So, audio books are good for me, but before then, I used to have a stack of 10, so that was like not useful.

And then I would dream about business when I would go to bed. And the bed was like the greatest moment to read books cuz I would do business full day, and then the thesis was to stimulate my my subconscious with like all that info, right? But, it affected the quality of my sleep, so I stopped that. Now, nowadays, I took all of these books I had a high temp period, but I have a sauna session every day and I have these physical books as stack of books in my sauna.

>> [snorts] >> And that strategy is pretty funny because I'm almost about to pass out and I'm still reading >> [laughter] >> something and I'm not sure what the [ __ ] is my surgical scientific thesis about. That's like shutting off the conscious and I'm reading like Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss, which is >> that book. >> one of my favorite. What do you think about uh these two uh types of learning routines just to close out the pod?

>> Yeah, I love reading before bed for a couple of reasons. One, you talked about subconscious priming. It's interesting that it lowered the quality of your sleep. Uh that has never happened for me. But just like you, my brain will work to solve problems while I'm sleeping if I subconsciously prime it and getting the blue light out of the room and reading a physical paper book can help put you to sleep.

>> But you still need a light to That was also like a concern of mine. You still need a light to read a physical book. Even Kindle has some kind of background light. >> Yes. Yes, it's true, but it's not it's not um both the Kindle and the light that you can have next to your bed can be less disruptive than the blue light on your phone, which is nice.

Uh the other one that you talked about. So, yesterday I was in I have a sauna in my garage. I know we're both biohacking in a lot of the same ways. We love the same stuff. And I was doing the Wim Hof breathing like three rounds of Wim Hof breathing in the sauna. >> Yeah, that'll do it. I was like half alive by the end of three rounds of that. >> [laughter] >> And uh it skyrocketed my heart rate even more than normal.

I was so I recommend that for people and then I also read in the sauna just like you do. Um Yeah, so it feels like the information flows in your brain more effectively when you're less conscious and and therefore less distracted. >> Just one last comment. Well, I read Tools of Titans, which have been a favorite book of mine. I reread it nowadays and it didn't age that well, you know?

Either the information in there or the fact that I'm like 10x as successful when I first picked it up. What do you think that is, you know? Like again, it's is it books as a medium that's falling down or is it just me growing? Do you get that sometimes? You reread a book and you're like, "Oh, I'm different definitely at a stage of my career which this guy doesn't have any value to add to me." >> Yeah, well just like you can never step in the same river twice because the river has changed and so have you.

I'd argue you can never read the same book twice because you've grown and you've changed and so the lens through which you're consuming the information is different. Some books stand up to that newer elevated version of you and you can get a deeper different version of it and then some books, yeah, you outgrow. I mean the the reason that I continue to read books that I've outgrown is because I do like to refresh the fundamentals.

I think there's some value in that but at the same time, yeah, life is too short to read a bad book that's not serving you. So, I'm a big advocate of putting down books that are not going to solve the problems you're dealing with today. >> Yeah, and last hack, shout out to listening to Art of War while being a a war phase in your business while playing Call of Duty.

That was uh >> That's habit stacking right there. >> Yes. Nick, where can people find out more about you? >> You can go to Instagram and check out Book Thinkers. That's my biggest and most vibrant community. You've got hundreds of thousands of other nerds like me and Charles in there. >> All right. So, it's Nick and Charles for another founder with