John Normoyle, Content Joinery: AI, ethics, legislation, career journey, and the impact of technology on society

welcome to another founder wisdom pod we have John normal with us today Norm oil that is uh he is from Irish descent so am I so we had a nice pre-call last time that we spoke we spoke about Bill Clinton meta because he started at uh working for Bill Clinton basically which is quite legendary in this world uh for good reasons also for for the not so um I already spoke with a bunch of folks that worked with uh Bill and to my eyes he's a phenomenal man we're gonna discuss about that today and we're going to discuss about John's company content joinery he is founder there and chief strategist meta was a recent stint as well two years as the content design manager I have started to speak with um Folks at meta including

uh Peter Rojas the head of uh Instagram DMS and messenger so that was not so long ago and yeah Peter was was quite the The Legend and I'm very excited to speak to John he had a very interesting career to say the least started at Yahoo in Germany in 2002. so excited to dive in a bunch of topics including but not limiting to entrepreneurship uh AI uh what what's it like to work with Bill Clinton uh foundation and a bunch of other things in between by the way John is near SF in a call in a town called Tiburon which means shark this podcast is brought to you bypotbuyer.com if you want to start scale be invited

to a podcast like this one or even get sponsors spot podcasts are pretty much at a peak nowadays and I I feel that will keep on growing you can get to speak to folks who would normally not have the opportunity to speak to it sort of like this excuse to grow your network and also grow your network because you can get some leads and some clients off podcasts and obviously if you get paid by sponsors that is a cool life so botwire.com John Long intro uh can you be briefer and they'll be a bit more about yourself Charles thanks for having me on it's great to be with you this morning loved our first conversation love your content super inspired so what am I I'm I've got quite the career Journey But ultimately I'm a

communication strategist I'm a digital marketer and six months ago I set up my own content strategy consulting firm called content joinery uh based here in the San Francisco Bay area and I did that because I've spent a 20-year career working in-house at the Clinton Foundation I got in there early it was like super fast growing non-profit like a startup without the revenue Mission a different type of

mission I actually started very much in the tech side my undergrad was computer science um I tried to be a programmer but I much more I much prefer to work with people I really like to understand people and that's kind of brought my career in a different path um so I was part of that Clinton Foundation Journey we could talk about that later um it that inspired

me to go in a different direction I spent over 10 years in agency land so I worked in public relations agencies advertising brand advertising agencies in New York and then direct marketing agencies and that was awesome because I got to have so many different clients in tech and fintech and non-profit and government and consumer and you know even though some of the Rhymes that were made personally

interested in working full-time it's fascinating to work for them for a couple of months I then had made the opportunity to go in-house to Big Tech I always had some fomo around that Facebook was sort of a North star company for me having worked in digital marketing for so long it was very cool to be part of a product team and I think anyone who's an opportunity

to see what it's like to be inside a building user company with billions of Revenue on the line is just amazing for the brain and soul and then along through all that journey I was also uh fortunate to be a co-founder of a home care startup which brought me back to ground and I really had to like fascinating to kind of see how to build a business from the ground up and I think that got me both kind of inspired and a little bit more confident to ultimately step out and do my own thing which I've been doing for the last six months so kind of a weird Journey um it was never really the plan I think if we had met even five years ago and you're like oh John you should do Your

Own Thing be an entrepreneur I'd be like no no way you're not not for me but I think career Journeys and life is all about seeing these you know Forks in the road and these decision points and going let's go for it and I was fortunate to have a lot of very interesting forks and chosen mostly the right ways or say sometimes maybe not but that's all part of it right so it's been fun it's like this podcast thing that I started never expected to Catch Fire to monopolize most of my time you know at first it was like let's just give back which is very naive right I know and sounds very cliche or a clickbaity or whatever and then I realized it was the best learning method ever so my brain was like

oh I am hooked I can learn from 15 seals a day and finally it's like yo let's bring some scale to that uh let's let's capitalize on this podcast so the podcast agency the sponsors and it's weird right where life can lead you but I've always been a consumer of podcasts I guess that's where it really started um you're a full-time like studier of the world and

I think yeah that's what I see in you and I think if I reflect back that was my motivation for agency World in particular I think it's you know it's it has a trajectory that's up and down 80s was the Mad Men area and it was huge in the 90s you could make a ton of money it was kind petering out the 2000s but anyone who wants to work with people in anything that's around product design or marketing like if you're in an agency you get exposed to every single type of industry and how they make money and what's important to them and who is their target audience and if you're someone like me that was like a strategist brand strategist digital strategist you're sitting there reading about these people and what motivates them and

what makes them tick so that I think you know kind of I was always kind of very curious about the world I grew up in Ireland as you mentioned and moved to the US and lived in Munich during college so always been very curious about people in the world and how it works and people and organizations and people coming together and I think the agency world really

gave that to me the foundation gave it to me in a very different way because it was just so um like we had basically one of the most famous celebrities in the world attached to us and when I worked there he had only left the White House two years prior so this was 2003 this was George W Bush was president this was there was no Barack Obama on the scene yet Donald Trump is running his Hotel chain you know there was Senator Clinton was a Senator and Bill Clinton was the most famous Democrat in the United States and this really Global leader so I got exposed to the world and people in a very unique way but after a couple years there I also realized that when in my you know pulling it down to

my actual function of digital marketing running the website running our email fundraising systems getting the organization on social media I knew that my job was made easier because we had a massive celebrity and it didn't take much to get attention I knew that was not sustainable for us I also knew it was not sustainable for me in my career and it's like I need to learn how

to um sell anything really boring and what was funny was I so I left I was studying for my Master's at night in strategic Communications purposely to understand this world I arrived into an agency that I was very fortunate to get into took me on and they liked me and one of my first accounts was for Bell Brands which sells cheese and I was sitting there trying

to figure out how to do digital strategy for the Laughing Cow Cheese and that was my job and that was probably one of the best things that ever happened to me because a week prior I was sitting in one of those famous offices in the world one of the most famous people in the world and it was marketing activities around that that were difficult at knots awake

because we got so much scrutiny but we didn't have to fight that hard for people to pay attention to the word Clinton next minute next week I'm here sitting with like okay how do I create a conversation on social media around keys and that was just an incredible lesson for me that I'm so grateful I had and at that point in my still in my late 20s to kind of pull it all down and go okay actually how do you do this well I do care people care about this who's buying this product product and how do I you know make this interesting on social I think God I had a great team working with wonderful one we call it Nicole de Lanzo who basically showed me the ropes and kind of got me up

and running there but agencies are amazing um I called them I have three right now I have one that is the podcast one I have the cold email one I have the chat GPT one so like building a John GPT for example that one is trending right now um more more on that later but I called in my labs so I'm constantly testing product Market fit ideas on each and the the cold email one it's just like I have these clients they're in X Niche we talk about targeting all of these niches we talk about offering all of these different products and then me my role as the mod scientist is observe call relations you know what works together um that just fascinates my brain and it's my Grand Vision would be an AI to

run that for me and tell me like look there's a this major major product Market fit there in that Niche hence you should start that business I believe in the near future we could start businesses in 48 hours and on day three I'd become a Senti millionaire um because that's the type of world that we live in you know like it never sleeps right there's time zones

in all around the world there's different markets the AI would Auto translate it would invest your budget which I think it's is why it's important to have like good cash in the bank so that when that AI exists or if you can create it well you can just feed it the money right because it will go on your Facebook ads account and all that yeah look I think when I listen to you and I read your content and reading everything about AI it makes me a little bit nervous because I'm like okay I like lots of people in knowledge work it's like am I going to get automated it's very I do content and like content is in the middle of all these AI tools which have TPT and everything else so there's a bit

of nervousness going on but I would also say that you know having been in this AI is completely different right now and it's at this inflection point we haven't had something as powerful but there have been these waves before and I was there for the social media wave and it's like every brand is jumping into social trying to create a conversation and have these amazing relationships with

their customers this way and it's like going to completely upend everything and all brands are gone blah blah blah there reality is humans are fickle and everything that you're describing with launching these companies and everything's so fast and I see this already in digital advertising and it's kind of sad in a way that everything has become so just like offer offer DTC you know there's like we're

using kind of that sense of falling in love with Brands and and consumers are realizing that a lot of the stuff that's being shoved in their news feed is like cheap for a reason and you know it's paying the ass to return it and it doesn't last and it is kind of a way maybe coming back towards Brands the reality is humans are constantly evolving the same

way that gen AI is and we're very dubious and we're all kind of like becoming increasingly critical of or better able to analyze what we're seeing so my hope is that there will still be room for people like me to help companies and Brands and organizations and non-profits kind of actually connect with who they're trying to talk to using these tools which are amazing as I would

describe it maybe as a um a head start and one of my previous agencies at Epsilon we worked with an amazing tool and that was kind of how we kind of positioned it it was like this is a head start on our research it doesn't do everything but it kind of like cuts down that first week to get to something interesting because ultimately what I'm trying to

do for my clients now what I've always done even when I was in-house and a product team was trying to like be that voice off the consumer voice of the user and what they care about changes literally every day as they evolve and we have to constantly stay on top of that so yes I'm excited for what you just described it kind of scares me I think scaring a lot of us I'm hopeful that we will still have you know value as humans and that's what I try and stay on top of is people because people are complicated right like you know politics and pandemics and you know that's why AI you know if it can like push something personalized to every one of us I think it can be better than humans at understanding

and communicating with humans it's like a it's like us but Amplified I mean if I want to oversimplify it I'd say like the 0.1 percent will always Thrive if you consider your part like of that as a high performer um there might be various scenarios that will play that will not play out drastically it will be like slower it won't be instant that's for sure but it

will it it is gonna happen sooner or later just just an example um that is somewhat scary you know and super exciting for me but also weirdly it's just weird um let me explain um so there's like four four uh efficiencies I'm working on first my brain right like habits okay when this podcast is finished can I talk to John about X you know joining my Mastermind

for example second is template so I send a bunch of emails I need templates and on LinkedIn too to send like stuff that I constantly um third is Automation and fourth is AI so these are the four things I'm constantly working on um having slash like 80 of my Workforce I've managed over a thousand humans in my career um and I'm really bullish on the AI system

but where I'm getting at it the third step right automation for example my email campaigns yesterday I added 65 000 contacts to my emails and I have 35 mailbox sending like 300 emails each on a daily basis so that's an example of like Automation and how folks that are quite technical get like an unfair Advantage you know so theoretically I'm like 500 000 percent more out there

than my nearest competitor and that that's not even talking about AI right it's just talking about like servers and automations and zeros and ones so like imagine if there's AI onto that I've started using AI by the way in these campaigns so every person receives a custom email um that says oh uh your mission is to impact a thousand CEOs in the biotech field so it is

exciting it is scary also and last podcast I was talking about a limit to that you know to tell the AI that once my bank account reaches 10 million stop you know because I don't want to take more well what you're also going to be fine look first Maneuvers have Advantage right now I'm paying attention to your email but like because you're doing it but once there's

10 or 15 more people doing it I'm not gonna be reading your emails anymore I'm gonna need an AI to actually digest what's actually interesting so you have an advantage now but that doesn't mean that in 6 12 18 months this is still going to be performing the same way because the reality is you're dealing with humans and we are all getting used to this we can

pick out what's written by chat GPT I'm seeing emails that are coming in to me that are like hey John would you like me to grow your agency hey John would you like to acquire like it's like it's like oh my God someone has just turned this on I'm already ignoring it so the same way that humans have ignored advertising on TV and have ignored advertising and

print and I've ignored advertising and social the reality is they will hit an infection point where this massive engine your building will not just get through and you'll need to do something different AI will drive it up now but you can't always guarantee it well you have a first Uber Advantage I agree yeah the point is I think sales and marketing themselves are gonna max out pretty

quick so what you'll get is like this tv ads saying like hey Charles I have the perfect supplement for you to increase your brain performance by 2x because I've seen that you run uh 35 kilometers it not creep I mean that sounds creepy but and it's probably a bad example because of my human brain I haven't thought about that but it would be the perfect ad for

me now on the other side doesn't mean that the business will actually have that very perfect product for me I think they will adapt an AI system to put like exactly the right formulation in that supplement so we're talking about hyper personalization on cells and marketing sign and we're also talking about the hyper personalization on the product side and the product side will be 10 200x harder

I agree and look it's it could be like how much crap have you bought probably online the last couple years that you've been disappointed with there also could be a trend back where people are like going back to relying on friends and family that are actually trusted their real life to kind of go hey do you like that you know I bought clothing online because you're in

the pandemic you arrive in it doesn't fit you know it's like the Rocks off you know I'm wearing a fury shirt right now I bought it because I could touch it in this store near my house and could try it on it's like oh we're actually back to old school shopping and now that I've wasted and all this money on crap that I wore once or twice as back to the Quality so I don't know look I think what you're describing in terms of the hyper personalization advertising the hyper personalization products works well with DTC there's certain calories that might work well but look I think there's still going to be room for that traditional kind of brand relationship High ticket items things that you keep for a long term and there's still gonna be

a lot of money to be made in those areas as well in those companies these still need in a marketing communication strategies that will work for them that can't be driven Crazy by AI Bots to make it work you can't have a hyper personalized BMW it just doesn't work yeah well you could seriously uh if someone like um but it would be complicated right because that what

I was about to say is that there's this company in SF I think their their Niche is called hyper Logistics and they're basically literally a box that you open um in your kitchen or some kind of drawer right and you get your items shipped in like three minutes the complexity of that business so they're they don't teleport items yet okay but right it's complex because they there's

digging right that needs to happen it's like a tube yeah and there's also sort of like we've all been fed you know Tesla is supposed to have autonomous cars for how many years now so there's this there's also like you know the metaverse hasn't quite materialized as fast as it's supposed to be so consumers are a little bit like I'll believe it when I see it so

yes there's a lot of energy with Stardust particularly the Bay Area is a microcosm here and I think we're all willing to kind of give things a go people also have more disposable income here and can kind of throw money around but you know the rest of the economy is it's not going to go as fast so look and we're also a lot of these kind of examples around like you know direct to Consumer type products consumable Goods right but there's a ton of money that goes into you know elections and people and non-profits and government and transport and there's all these other Pharmaceuticals and research and education there's all these other sectors that have tons and tons of tons of Revenue involved in them spend a ton of money on marketing Communications that aren't

all going to fit into this box of like you know cold emails with the sale email here's 10 off and I do think that we can kind of get distracted by the stuff we've seen our Facebook feed around the new workout clothing and the supplements that are targeting you Charles because you're a Jordan's athlete but I there's a there's billions of consumers in the world that need

other stuff other than stuff that's arriving in a box in their house so we can't get too distracted right then one important point that you were pertaining to is legislation you know like the decisions at the top are still taking a lot of time now when we apply that to AI I think they're sort of slow to react that legislators I mean they've interviewed uh Sam Altman

not so long ago and that was like six or seven months after that whole thing happened they still haven't moved yet um I'm very very interested in that part the legislation and the ethics there will be a lot of attention uh with that and I do think it's gonna slow things down obviously there's no way that this would accelerate things right so but generally speaking try to

limit the internet just try you know like you can't do it and the Very nature of Internet which is why it was so revolutionizing internet yeah it's even more impressive than AI because without it AI couldn't drive um yeah it's it was built for freedom but it was built you can do anything you want in there um and I think AI is going to drive off that

look legislation is always going to be coming up in conflict with humans because I think people forget that government is serving its constituents and it's taxpayers and it's voters and they are constantly changing and their moods are changing what's important to them is changing based on the economy and what's going on their lives and climate change of wars and everything else so it's not like you can

pick today September 13th and go this is the legislation we need spend the next 12 to 24 months working on it because who knows what the world looks like by then so it's like it I agree I think it'll slow it down but ultimately yes the power of the internet and the communications network will probably Propel us forward and hopefully in good ways right and just for

one point I have another question after that but you were saying that the brain will evolve at the at a fast rate too I do agree with that I think there's going to be major development either in you know biochemistry my first business was a biohacking business so I supplement that increased brain performances and you really did observe a a solid 200 percent brain performance even now

with my coffee I wouldn't have that energy right now so I think we're gonna see lots of evolution there indeed I also think that yeah once we can neuralink humans uh it's going to be quite impressive and I don't think that is that much of Science Fiction um I want to ask though like uh yeah I've seen uh that you've shared like the canceling of the American

mind I've seen that on your LinkedIn so it's like uh open on that that question for for the last one but why do you think the canceling movement is somewhat corrupting uh the American mind and or uh slowing down progress but I I pre-ordered the book uh um because I've read his other books I think they're fascinating um I think that well the castle culture is hard

look it's people are complicated I think where it comes Roots down to is everyone has has a sense of themselves and what they're looking for and there is people end up having grievances because of things that are completely valid and it can happen no matter who you are or where you come from and I think that these grieving you or were living in a complicated World very

complicated hard World in comparison to decades before yes we have greater longevity and access to food and in generally we're more comfortable living but there's all these threats and there's competitiveness and I think that kind of every single person is living their own old lives and it's complex and they're dealing with their own things and they want to be able to see what what is holding them

back or what has created this thing for them so I think that when it comes to kind of the the council culture and what's happening it's like it's very easy also because they've created these social media channels where you can lash out in a way that was never possible 20 years before where you can literally pick anyone and create a storm around them and that is just

completely blown things up and I think as individuals and as communities and as countries and as companies we don't quite know how to manage around that we've been figuring it out and sometimes people have gotten you know megaphones that they're probably when we paid way too much attention to them we're just learning through it and I do think that you know I don't know what this book

will be about but in terms of like examining whether it's holding us back and that's what I kind of care about you know is it holding us back as a country you know the community as a nation as a world and where do these things kind of you know unintended unintentionally kind of putting blockers out there how can we manage around it and then it'll be very

interesting to kind of learn if social media was a big part of kind of creating megaphones for grievances no matter what their grievance was and who you were what could AI do to these simple human natural behaviors that we need to make it better need to be better prepared for so that when these tools are available to us the way social media became available to us 15

20 years ago we can Better Think Through the consequences on our communities on our companies on our teammates on our families and then learn from that and that's what I think I'm kind of interested from that book is to see what that analysis looks like so we can get better prepared for what's coming next because it's very easy to kind of get stuck down these rolls of

like I'm going to build this company I'm going to have 10 million and I'm going to have a bottom there to make sure I don't make time building but what's happening the rest of your world Charles that you're selling to what are the consequences of the products that you're coming up with and then you have to sit there and and kind of you know take on that

responsibility if you're so focused on like hyper you know maximizing everything in your life there's a whole world changing around you and that's where I I like to care about and that's where I'm grateful that my career started in a non-profit where I was forced to listen to these conversations around the impact on communities around the globe where awful things can happen and it's no one's fault

and political leaders get in charge and throw things upside down it's not their fault and there's climate change and there's Wars and there's geopolitical stuff all of that is easy to ignore when you're talking about a product that you want to shove in someone's kitchen then miraculously produces food you're ignoring all of that and that's where I think it's going to be so important for all of

us working this industry to kind of pay closer attention and think through the consequences of our products and our marketing so we can hopefully have better outcomes as a result of it I'm hoping that book will help me better understand what's coming yeah I was a politically correct response me my more harsh viewers and I mean it's not harsh it's just that like when you cancel people

you just remove them from the convo and that's not okay I mean if they're really disrupting right and they're being trolls and they are and results to the the well-being of the group well I mean it's just like folks in society right like uh public disorder I think they call it well sure put them away for some time because they annoy the crap out of everyone um

but generally speaking people should have a voice I think it is like social media companies role to kind of make sure that the dialogue is open and positive and is leading in the direction of progress so canceling people yeah definitely not but I think capitalism corrupts a bunch of people right like they are loud and they're trollsy because they get the views they get the money of

that they get the power and that's where we need to sort of intervene not cancel but definitely voice out uh equally hard opinions but I do me the focus would be on on the tech platforms how they regulate that that and look I think I agree with you I think if a public figure makes a concerted effort to reflect on what they said and make amends and apologize I think we as a community of people should be more tolerant and understanding of that then social networks can only do so much it's also ultimately us as a community of people whether we identify as being from California the United States or wherever OR tech people to kind of go you know what that person said this they at least tried to correct and let's have a

little bit more forgiveness I agree with you in the council culture where some public figures are completely just walled off forever is not going to serve as well in the long term and we need to be a little bit better able to listen um and that could hopefully help but you know we've been conditioned by these platforms is just to respond so fast or just block and

ignore and we're not really sitting with what people are saying and trying to understand them and I think that's what kind of worries me with the speed of everything like I love these tools and it speeds everything up I know I do my best work when I pull back and I actually thoughtfully analyze what's happening and pay closer to attention when I'm walking into a meeting with

a client or a team and I want to I have a vision for where they should go I'm not going to get that super fast it's something that's marinated in my brain for a couple of days I've read something I went into the city I saw something and I'm able to weave a story and that so I think all of us could benefit from like slowing down a little bit when I'm looking at your calendar Charles and see what you're doing like oh my God you're going so so so fast what if you miss this amazing Insight that's going to lead to something super cool for you to build because you're going so fast well first um yeah for that calendar I think it's like different brains right like mine I've been given the gift

on my mom's side that from the yeah the ADHD gift you know so my brain thrives on that um I'm also like extreme and a lot of things that I do and I have a great back-end brain you know other than forgetting about people I don't forget about their insights you know us it's the second convo so I almost instantly remembered you when you mentioned you know

the Bill Clinton thing and The Meta um so I I don't think I'm losing much there I have I've taken care of my brain and for for that reason I think I I get Goods um insights out of that and we we all have different back-ends I think also like mine is about digestion so for example when I go in the long run I all these insides they pop out you know it's like Eureka moment it's really therapeutic for me to go on these long runs um to the the point about cancer culture last little Point here I think first yeah people go into fighter flights uh online where they feel offended so the question is oh is there a way you can't feel offended I think exposure is good but exposure with the right

mindset right because someone with not that that keeps on exposing themselves that will get angry and angry actually uh someone with the good mindset which is like oh online people have different opinions and every time I see someone in a different opinion and I feel offended I need to question myself and this might actually lead me to growth which is the right mindset and then if you

give even deeper it's probably the educational system that other taught us this win lose mindset I win you lose you know like um if you don't pass that test uh the yeah I lose and um the classmate there that got 93 he wins I think from youth we should teach youngsters to think and win win so I plan to deploy my school in in like less than two years and we should also teach them that well first the word debate is probably not accurate should be more like conversation or win-win conversation right like this podcast me I can have any opinions yes sometimes I'll get offended and yes it'll take me a day but the the next damn like oh that was a great convo I benefited from that in hindsight you know I think

people need to stretch time and go more win-win I think that would be that would lead to a better Society if he asked like that for example the presidential [ __ ] debate you know it's people going at each other's throat what the [ __ ] is that you know what is that teaching to people you know it's teaching that I I win you lose that's not how it should go and that's why people they mimic that just like children's you know they see these debates and it's like oh that's that's how you talk politics yeah I think that the youth and today are thankfully not watching that debate but in terms of your school you're designing a school for Generations pretty different very different to me and pretty different to you too it is

unbelievably competitive for 18 year olds right now or 22 year olds embarking out in the world so I think that's where people like you and me were different Generations from them we've had different life experiences I think I've had amazing opportunity I'm so fortunate that life I've had I think you've had great opportunities but it's like thinking of them you have to build a school for them

not for Charles and their work what they grew up with having all of their middle school and high school in the thoughts of social media thank God I didn't have to deal with that that's what's really good about his previous book The coddling of the American mind talks about how when social media got turned on in high school and college and what it did to people it's

fascinating to me if you're focused on on education you need to get deep with the sort of teenagers of of today and understand what they're dealing with in order to build them a school that actually work for them I think that's what you and I and others of Our Generation kind of have to kind of constantly remind yourselves what worked for us is not going to work

for the people coming behind us and we have to build schools and products and communities that are going to be complement and support them in the way that they've grown up particularly with exposure technology that you and I didn't have to deal with right and the solid back-end that's why you know mindfulness and win-win and it's a lot of Mind Stuff how to think you know in

principle that will not change yeah adversity like my partner is at your physician I hear stories of the horrible thing happening to good people every single day people who are going in with a back pain and realize that got cancer it is so heartening and awful to hear this is the reality of all over the world every single day horrible things to happen to amazing people and

it's not their fault and they have to learn how to react to it and build their life up from it that's a lot of theme of the coddling in mind and I'm interested to see what's becoming the next book that's my great challenge you know I'm not sure if I should go into AI or med tech because yeah this is like really touching and it's horrible you know because your life will be different I encourage you to put it on a topic I think you'd probably get more from it and maybe education is your thing and that could be amazing to apply all of your energy the products you're developing the financial success I know that you'll have with it and apply it towards a societal issue that's what I learned I'm so grateful for

the exposure early in my career working for a non-profit International NGO it's like there's a big human problems that collectively we should tackle governments corporations individuals and that would be me I'm I don't know where I'll apply my energy quite yet but I encourage you to think about that and to kind of get that message out that's where I think we can all these are so scary

man like it's like will I will I die before I achieve my greater Mission you know what's going to be your true impact content with impact content yeah if you make me think right there but uh I mean we're on time actually with 13 minutes of uh thank you so much John uh where can people find out more about you absolutely you can find up find the easiest at contentjoinery.com or find me on LinkedIn John Norm oil there's not that many John normals in the world so it's usually easy to find me John's great chatting with you thank