John Lee Dumas, Entrepreneurs on Fire: Seeking a business partnership to scale podcast growth

everyone welcome to another CEO wisdom podcast today we with us we have John Lee Dumas he's a legend I'm even a bit nervous to talk about him uh you guys probably know him from EO fire entrepreneur on fire podcast I've listened to this podcast since a good decade so yeah John is uh it's an honor to have you here today can you briefly introduce yourself and tell

us about EO fired up to be here 10 and a half years ago I had this crazy idea to launch the first daily podcast interviewing the world's most successful entrepreneurs everybody told me it couldn't be done which made me even more excited about finding a way to do it so I launched entrepreneurs on fire here we are a decade plus later 4 000 episodes 150 million listens

um Still rocking the mic having a great time doing it you're a Legend um you've shared your financial reports for quite some time I've always devoured those you are religious religiously uh whatever that word is um precise about your finance and uh we really enjoy that you're well there was rumors that you're about to sell the Pod and that makes a whole lot of sense I've been

watching your latest moves with the Pod um so tell us about a potential exit with your podcasting business the why why not keep the podcast as a cash cow for example why why are you potentially seeking an exit here yeah so I'm actually seeking a partnership not an exit so you know there's definitely a lot of interesting things that kind of swirl around when you know you

are making moves in the world and the reality is this I love what I do with entrepreneurs on fire 4 000 episodes I love interviewing entrepreneurs I love what you and I are doing um having this conversation being interviewed by other individuals I love this this conversation these types of conversations and I don't want to stop having them what I do want is the entrepreneurs on fire

platform to grow I want it to be bigger is it big right now yeah two million listeners a month that's a big platform 150 million listens over its lifetime that's a big platform but it could be so much bigger I've been growing my bit my brands for 10 years essentially organically I have a tiny team of three people as you notice in the income reports our net

profits are insane a lot of times approaching and sometimes even surpassing 90 percent you know we bring our lawyer on for a legal tip our accountant on for our tax tip and to validate all of those numbers so people know that they're real because they are but the fact is I love the interviews that I do and I want them to reach more people and I think

a lot of successful entrepreneurs know the following statements the person to grow a business from zero to whatever that might be a million dollars 10 million dollars or a million listens 10 million listens is not the same person to grow that business to a hundred million dollars to a hundred million listens and I'm not that person I want to keep doing what I love doing the interviews

and I want to find a partner who's going to come in by a majority stake of entrepreneurs on fire and then do all the things that I know can be done find the Partnerships pour in the advertising dollars because right now it's all organic baby I don't have any expertise in advertising as far as like promoting my show on social media and all these different areas and

using advertising dollars I'd be throwing away that money if I did it by myself and frankly I'm not impressed with the agencies that are out there that do that like I need somebody with a vested interest who knows how to do this that wants to do this and wants to blow entrepreneurs on fire up from a business that's making you know close to three million dollars in

Revenue a year netting most of that and taking it up to 10 million dollars a year and then 25 million dollars a year and then 50 million dollars a year and Beyond if that's something that they're capable of doing because I'm not the person to do it but I want to retain you know 20 25 ownership of this company because I love it I want to continue to be the talent and I want to help this company grow as big as I think it can be to reach more people so you know this is not what a lot of people like just kind of thought by the headlines which is like I want to sell this podcast kind of like wipe my hands and walk away into the sunset I don't want to do that

number one because that wouldn't work because it's really impossible to just hand a a influencer like business to somebody else and expect that to continue going forward and B I would have nothing to do like I'm a guy that likes working that likes doing my craft and I want to keep doing it just on a bigger stage with more exciting opportunities that are being presented with the

right partner with the right team with the right company so entrepreneurs on fire again I want to find a majority buyer that wants to come in with the excitement in the right plan I want to retain minority I want to stay in the company as the talent and then I can find the right business partner to do that then we'll make it happen if I can't I'll just stay here in Puerto Rico where I'm at making a couple of million plus dollars a year net profit paying essentially no taxes life is good life is good man um in terms of my first million uh they got acquired by HubSpot kind of the hustle right so it's a bit more complex than that what would that partner look like because if it's a company uh a

big company well they would have to put an operator which is kind of complex which means it would either be a former acquisition of of theirs so for example if they would put sambar as the host of your podcast that could make sense yet are you looking for that big company because not all kinds of individuals have uh 10 15 million to drop on a podcast so

like precisely I'm trying to figure out like who would be a good acquisition would would it be like a a small business would it be a big uh company like HubSpot yeah I can tell you who it wouldn't be and it would not be Sam par I mean the guy's got a lot of skills but doing seven interviews a week is not something that he would want to or could do effectively and very few people could and I don't again kind of see myself being replaced I want to remain the talent I've got the skills the chops the talents and the track record of somebody who's produced a daily podcast for over a decade I love doing it I want to continue doing it now like Sam in some ways in like my first million

and the hustle um I have you know a huge deal with HubSpot seven figures I've actually signed my second seven figure contract with them so can I see HubSpot being a company that acquires entrepreneurs on fire and does a lot of the similar things that they did with the hustle and my first million I could absolutely see that could I see another perfect situation of a person

that wants to build their own personal Brands and you know has a lot of money to do that instead of them just starting from scratch saying hey I could buy slash partner with entrepreneurs on fire own the majority stake you know have John Lee Dumas retained on as the talent and continuing to do what he does best and then I could grow my brand alongside of entrepreneurs

on fire try a lot of cool things along the way bring in my areas of expertise with Partnerships with affiliates with advertising with all the different things that they can and and could bring to the table that I just don't want to do the work to do myself because it's just not my area of expertise nor do I have the desire to do it that would be a perfect buyer coming in somebody being like hey I was going to spend a few million dollars myself trying to build my own personal brand you here got entrepreneurs on fire 10 years of brand building all that comes with you know the um Equity that that comes with as well the audience is already in place the name recognition all of those things I could supercharge you know

what I want to do by partnering with something like that and then taking their skills that they have to got them to where they are to be the success that they are that they're in a financial position to buy a podcast for 15.5 million dollars and be Off to the Races right I get a better picture now uh we're gonna go rapid fire uh podcast related questions

so okay I've seen the master class modeled in your latest podcast so you charge to be on the bud that's genius how do you go with that and a free model because some people are somewhat famous enough to bring good attraction to the Pod so how do you go free vs Master Class paid model so are you talking about for instance my podcasting course having that kind

of for example um if I would want to be me on the EO fire podcast I would have to pay um right and uh but potentially deliver a master class so how do you go with that pain model via the free model oh okay I understand yeah so with entrepreneurs on fire we have what's called an appearance fee which is 3 500 to be a guest on our show we get approximately four to five hundred inquiries per month of people that are looking to be on the podcast so we take those individuals and those inbounds and we send them to an application page the first of of which says if you are selected there is a thirty five hundred dollar appearance fee so that of course Cuts like 75 percent of people off right away

because frankly they're not entrepreneurs on fire because an entrepreneur who is on fire could easily handle a marketing expense like that to be exposed to a massive platform so that kind of does a good job right there of clearing a lot of the individuals who frankly aren't ready for a platform like mine at this moment and then they we get applications of the people that are and

then we really go in for the topic we're really focused on like what topic are they proposing and how what good of a fit is it right now for our audience that's a key thing if their topic uh proposal is a good fit then I actually jump on a five minute call with that person because people can look good on paper but you know they can be a good person but they might not be a good communicator they might not be somebody who is able to to talk to talk like they're walking the walk and so I like to kind of just jump on it's a quick five minute call I have a couple quick questions for them I catch their Vibe their energy to make sure that I think it'd be a good interview

based off of their personality and then if those two things really align the personality of the topic then we can talk about next steps if it's the right fit and then if it's the the right fit then it is a 3 500 appears fee now that's the last five years we've been doing that the first five years we did not do that we were building our show building our numbers building our our awareness and building the the just the overall audience that we now have and so it was much more of an outbound game it was hey I need to go find people to fill a seven day a week show now if I was only doing a weekly show you know it would have come a lot quicker because you only need to find

four people per month then I was trying to find 30 people per month you know back when people hadn't really heard of the show so that was always a full-time job the first couple years it you know and of course if I was adding on a pay model on top of that it just would not have worked so everything was free that's how podcasts have to start and then once you see and this is you know just an entrepreneurial business reality supply and demand baby it's all about supply and demand when I saw I was getting 200 then 300 then 400 then 500 inquiries for 30 Spots I'm like that's supply and demand you know let's cut out the the chaff let's focus on the people that really would be a good fit for the

show let's charge them for it and let's see how that goes and a couple things that I loved about that to be honest with you is when you pay and you make an investment like that even if you are really financially successful like you want that to be worthwhile so people would practice and prepare and show up and they were ready and they were living Great Value

then when the show came out they're they're now promoting it to their audience because it's a big marketing expense for them where before it didn't happen often but every now and then someone be like oh yeah my secretary booked this what are we doing right now are we doing and they wouldn't really have any idea they would just be very unprepared and it'd be very frustrating so

I did love that aspect of charging and I always do recommend if you have a show or you've been doing it for a little while and you've built up some credibility some Authority start charging 200 bucks start charging 500 bucks like whatever you feel like might work and maybe play around with that and you'll be shocked at how serious your guests start taking your show Financial accountability

yeah I get people asking me that all the time I think what I'm gonna do but yeah it's kind of controversial I would charge folks that are not great communicator but that would kind of overlap on the quality of the Pod wouldn't it yeah I'm not sure about that one I just think it's always like is your listener getting a good experience first and foremost because they

have to stay they have to they have to recommend your show to others like that's how your show is going to grow so that's why even though it's a lot of my time I jump on these five minute calls with every potential guest that goes to the application process people that have already raised their hand and said yes I will pay 3 500 yes this is the topic that I want to talk about if if those things make sense and they've checked the first box and the topic looks good I take the time to jump on a call with them because it they have to be a good communicator they have to be able to have a personality that's going to be enjoyable to my listeners otherwise the show just does not work yeah it's

tough to refuse people so I my downsell is like let's connect on LinkedIn and see for the the future uh last question for you John I know you're you're tight on time um quality yes but are you bullish on some platform for example nowadays I'm publishing these on YouTube and I do YouTube shorts really bullish on YouTube what do you think about uh that very bullish on

YouTube I think it's fantastic especially for long tail like when you can get really good guess um you know people will be searching for those names and and watching those shows for years and years to come you know somebody who's done a spectacular job on that is Lewis house like he's really maximized the YouTube platform and it's just awesome to see what he's done there you know

unfortunately with a daily podcast I just didn't see the the way that I I could create a quality video show seven days a week if I was doing a weekly show Absolutely because it just gives you more flexibility but with a Daily Show I just had to call a spay to spade and just recognize that hey I'm just gonna go for quantity and quality audio only like

that's the focus so I love the platform of YouTube I think it's fantastic you know I think there's been some ups and downs of Spotify but I think you know they've got a great opportunity to to do some good things in the space you know I think you know Pandora is way behind but you know there's some opportunities there as well and you know there's just the

old stall wires like apple podcast is still doing its thing and they're still doing really really good albeit slow Improvement love it man thank you so much for your time John it's been amazing where can people find out more about you entrepreneurs on fire is the podcast come and listen websites eofire.com check it out those income reports that we talked about all 117 of them are right

there on the page and uh it's been great chatting thank you so much