Idriss Al Rifai, Flow48: Special forces, startups, delayed gratification, and leadership

And we are live with Idris Al Ri. Idris is a co-founder and CEO at Flow 48 currently in Barcelona. Flow48 is in Dubai. And Idris has a very cool background. So uh chief strategy and data officer at Glo. You probably know Glovo. Uh he's been founder and co at Fetcher. So definitely a a serial entrepreneur and uh very accomplished uh guy. I think you started as a political advisor, right?

And a consultant at uh BCG. Dis can you give us a better background and overview of what you're up to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's been uh so yeah, I've been um born and raised in France. I mean, thanks for having me, Charles. It's good. It's good to be on on the podcast. So, like look, we're Yeah. I've got a bit of a untraditional background. I used to be a professional basketball player.

Uh played for a couple of years. Uh was my passion. Um and uh but then like switched gear and went to the special forces. Uh so um like the equivalent of uh the the Delta Forces in the US or the SAS in the UK. I've been deployed in 13 countries and then after that I started building company. Uh I built my first company. I sold it moved to the Middle East.

two years with BCG to prove I could be doing something normal and then and then started building Fetcher which was which was a great journey you know zero to 5,000 employees uh six countries of operations and it was the early days of VCs in the Middle East completely different than what it is right now uh exited that company and then I moved to Glo in Barcelona so

I'm here I got to love the city and the journey with uh with Globo was quite interesting you know we moved from we were in eight countries when I joined, 25 when I left uh and we sold the company for 2.2 billion and it was a crazy uh yeah crazy ride. Um and then I started building uh three years ago now. Yeah. Uh 448. And is business boring uh compared to your ex career as a special force and a professional athlete?

Boring. Um I don't know, right? Because for me like the highest the the stress is very different I would say but is also um so for me the highest period of stress was actually when the times where uh where fetcher was going was going through tough times for me it was the highest level of stress and it's true that in the special forces like I could get killed like like any day I

lost only like two people in operation so which was quite quite low um but it's just a very stress. Um, very different, but it feels like for some reason you're more in control in the forces, which is maybe a bit a bit weird as a feeling, but yeah, very different stress. Yes, that I think as humans we're wired to externalize our stress physically, right?

like we're not wired to sit down on a chair and get uh 10 to 70 micro traumas per day, psychological, emotional ones, and we don't have any ways to sort of externalize them. Well, in sports and uh in in the army, you sort of physically control it, right? Like if you feel stress, adrenaline hits you, then it it's in your body. You start running, you start uh ducking for cover, shouting orders, right?

So, I think that's that's the why. Tell me a bit more about the Let's Let's start with the the basketball career, right? How far did you go with there? Did you go to Did you get to go to the Olympics? Because I watched the Paris Olympics not so long ago and the the France team did super well, right, with this very tall guy. I forgot his name. Yes, that guy is [ __ ] elite.

Um, yeah. How how was it for you? Uh, and why why did you pick uh basketball? What why was that sport into you back then? Um, look like I was always into sports uh for like I was doing like ping pong back in the days and I was in the I was in the French championship and I remember it was like one of the first, you know, uh, taste of playing competitively.

I played judo but yeah, basketball really caught my attention. And I thought that it was just for me it was the best uh the best um individual collective sport like cuz you're only five people which means that your impact on the game is very high. Uh but still it's it's a team sports and I love you know the whole dynamics that happen in the team. Uh I was unfortunately I was not tall.

I mean obviously so I'm I'm like 6'2 63 so 1 minute 92 93 so I'm not small but in the basketball world this is very small like you need to be very special if you want to be professional at 190 um you're always going to be the shortest guy on the team which means you need to bring something to the table which I brought something to the table all the way to professional but I thought it was I was never special enough for to make like an impact on a professional team let alone fulfilling my dreams going Euro League or NBA, you know, like.

So, it was a bit of a ah moment when I realized that I was just, you know, at this level I was just not the best and I could never be. Um, so it's tough. And what about Tony? Tonyy's 622. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. You need to have something else. He does. What did he have? Speed. Oh, speed. Speed. It's just He was like two years younger. Um, and it was just uh impossible to stop.

Um, and you know, some people are just like jump to the roof like we say in the US, right? Uh, or a crazy athleticism or you know, like a crazy like um um or or or just like super fast. In today's game, it's a bit different because the game relies a lot more on three points. So, I would probably would have been better now because I was a three-pointer and and that was my, you know, my key, right?

But I was never, especially in France, athleticism. I don't know if you saw the national team, but it's very athletic. That's the probably the only team that is as athletic as the US, right? Uh, in the world pretty much. So, look, we're like the the French basketball is extremely athletic and I was never in that league. Um, so, you know, you have to come down to, you know, to reality and just say that it's uh it's never going to be a career.

Yeah. It's so next level nowadays like their diets, their regimen, their physiootherapy, their use of biohacking, man. It's it's crazy like in the Olympics especially, not just basketball players, but everyone has like very elite routine and I very much pick up on that as a as an athlete myself, but uh most importantly as a CEO, right? I just take all of their hacks and I implement it to to buy hack this brain of mine nowadays.

Yeah. And you do some extreme learning, right? From what I understand. So I'm sure for you is the same, right? Recuperations and making sure that you don't explode your body on single race is super important, right? Yeah. But I I think just like you like all the physical activity and all these crazy events that I did, it's to bring it back to my co and founder world, right?

It's like the the grit that I develop from that. Like yesterday, you know, like I have my Sunday call with my family and then I'm like, "Hey, I'm going to do 110k in uh in Brazil." And last last 100k that I did, uh I was sick like for a month after that and I had like panic attacks like I had two of them after that. It it really destroyed me to to another level.

And then my brother was like why why' you do it, you know? And he he doesn't understand because he's not a founder, you know? It's like you need that [ __ ] to get your grit to the next level. And that's that's how you achieve more. That's how you're you're happier. You're better human being, right? You're calmer. your your mort and and you you went through [ __ ] You went through hell, you know, so now everything just feels easier.

Do you agree? Yeah, I think it's it's focus, right? There is also a lot of like resistance, resilience um and a lot of uh um uh delayed gratification, right? This is I think this is the best uh this is the best way to you know to like that to show the similarities, right? because we're so much into immediate gratification in today's world while both sport and you know being a CEO is all about delayed gratification right like you have nothing today you work super hard for a couple of months and nothing happens and then one day boom you know you get your biggest client or you got to run a fun so like things happen and we think like it's

an overnight success and it never is right it's always an overnight success that has been built for the past seven years right so like it's always and and sport is the same right you need like who's going to care about you know waking up at 4:00 a.m. to go for a run and that extra session you do when you're when it's raining outside, but it just pays off.

All this stuff pays off, but it's all delayed, right? Who's going to carry the boats, right? Like uh my question on on that the the follow-up question is is the goal like forever delaying gratification because get like myself nowadays, you know, when I work very hard, I might check u fancy cars, you know, after that because yeah, I love buying all these toys, you know.

So then at first it was like oh I I check it once a day if I have a really tough period um that on Facebook marketplace for example and then I checked it every three days and then it's every seven days I try to delay it as much as possible. So is the goal to to forever delay it like serotonin and reward. Uh that's a philosophical question. Um, but also concrete one, right?

Because I I think the the it's sort it's it's sort of bad to give you that reward because the brain loves to indulge in it, especially if you have an addictive personality like mine. My goal, I think, would just be to yeah, forever delay it and not check any cars that just work. But I think we have I mean first is difficult to answer and the fact that it's philosophical doesn't mean that I'm you know like I think it's very interesting.

That's what I meant. I'm I'm not trying to avoid the topic. I think like the fact that as a proportions like uh people who have it all right a lot of money that they have not uh that they have not fought to get right as a higher uh percentage of suicides than people who are just like struggling. So there is something in our mind that is all about uh trying to achieve right uh and it's not so much about the results but it's it's almost this drive that we have on an everyday like that feeling that our our days or our or struggles our fights have a direction right that I think makes a lot of sense and therefore creates a lot of drive.

So yeah, so for me in a way if I had to answer I think I would like uh delayed gratification is a is an extremely potent way to drive and to stay driven right because I think what happens also is that the brain starts uh finding gratification in pain and in the process right and not in the reward. And that's the beauty like uh you just like yeah nowadays I caught myself lately just finding deep satisfaction and being in the grind and in the struggle you know like for example earlier this year there were the the Trump tariffs right and that sort of paralyzed a bunch of my clients into buying some more or getting new clients right and that affected my cash flow but then

I was like yeah I've been there done that and dude respect you just like keep on crunching the work heads down very stoic, right? And just making [ __ ] happen. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Stoic them taught us that few thousand years ago, right? And to your comment about like u people that grew up like within without that struggle. I mean I had I talked to like trust fund kids every now and then whether it's on this podcast or uh because I work with VCs a lot and a lot of them they don't even realize that they come from wealth, right?

So they they're like lacking this this consciousness and uh yet a lot of them seems to to be quite unhappy trying to find themselves, right? They're like 40, 50 years old and they're still trying to find themselves. They haven't found that their purpose, their why because they always had it all. They always had security and they were never really challenged, you know, like in at the end of the day they're they're managing daddy's money and traveling to Monaco and just like uh living the life and that they're they they don't really know who they are and what they stand for.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fully agree. Yeah. Fully agree. It's not it's not that easy, right? Obviously, it's very easy to discard that and saying, you know, like um like it's it's it's already a much better situation than having nothing, right? But it's not it's also not 100% easy, right? So I get it because it's very difficult to reinvent yourself, find new challenges and being able to, you know, to find your own path and you should be driven by it and somewhat impossible, right?

Because the these kids, they had daddies that were really successful and that were like, hey, this is what you're going to do, right? Like this you're going to be secure your full life. I want to protect you. And uh they never go out really of that bubble. They're conditioned to one always have money and two like daddy's like this this really masculine really powerful type of persona like first generation wealth right and they're like I'm going to protect my kids but is that is that how you would raise your kids let's say that you have them and obviously you're wealthy is is that how you would educate them or do you would go like

the I think it's the Warren Buffett way and just give them nothing and just like be like hey you're by your own now uh I I give you the education I gave you the knowledge. Now you swim by yourself. Yeah, I would be more the Warren Buffett Shaq O'Neal. I mean, I'm not saying Shaq is a is a good example on everything, but it's funny because he said uh so like when there is an anecdote where when you know his kids came to like for he was like 18 or 20 was like oh I need like a car and the guy said uh you get a car when you get your PhD, right?

Or you know something along those lines when you finish when you complete your Exactly. Like so it's uh I I think you need to tie that because it's not it's not it's not doing any kind of favor to disconnect money from any kind of like for any kind of rewards. You need like you still need to feel like like you deserve the present, right? If you receive a present that you don't deserve, it doesn't have any value because it's not attached to any emotions.

Um so you need to go through that. You need to go through the process whatever that process is. It's a it's a privilege, right? And I don't think we understand our privileges until that the rug gets pulled under us, right? Like and yeah, I have a a school for kids. It's called like co.com and we teach um AI to seven years old kids and I think it's quite important that yeah, I mean capital is good, right?

It's energy. It it can fund their their business. But we teach them AI and entrepreneurship at such a young age so that they can build obviously we teach them other things, right? mindset, meditations, relationships, sports, and all kinds of stuff. But I think like kids are going to have such a hard time integrating this uh this AI market. Like I'm not sure about you, but me uh my parents, they sent me to to university, you know, and uh I was still trying to find myself back then, I discovered entrepreneurship, I think at uh 17 or 18.

And after that, it was it was game on, you know. I discovered my why. Even up to this day, I consider myself a founder. That's my identity, right? So, what do you think uh next gen will be facing? Like, let's say that they're 18 and they have [ __ ] AI agents that outwork them 10,000 acts. Uh how how can they adapt to that? Don't you think so? I think these traits are crossgenerational, right?

These are AI or not, right? So, obviously how it doesn't doesn't matter. My point is that it does not matter how disruptive the new technologies are, you're still going to have people who going to be able to or willing or even desiring to take risk and others and the majority of others will right. So no question AI would change you know the way we work and is already is changing but then I always remember you know like this revolutions of the Ludites right in the 1870s in the US when the like the guys were coming into the machinery just like into the the factory and just like you know destroying the machine because they they feel like it's going to take

their jobs and they're not going to be able to um you know to uh to pay like to to pay for food and to sustain for the family. So I always remember that. I always remember also like there is a quote from Sophoc right the phil the philosopher uh that that's a that's a letter that he sends to I think like his kid or one of his one of his students and he say you know I think that the generation and you don't know at the beginning of the letter he's just like but you just like we I feel

like this generation is lost that they're losing the taste to learn and then he's like okay so far like okay yeah guys so I think it's a there is uh we always have this kind of feeling that some of the values that are being carried in our generations might be lost in the others. But I think if you take the 20,000 ft view, I feel like this is a problem that mankind has always had.

Right. So I think it will not to answer your question exactly, I would say it is not going to change anything in that sense. Uh yeah, I'm going to counter that. Um, I think like yeah, new gens, older gens, I I think we all have um or strengths and our weaknesses and they sort of equal themselves, right? And yet I've seen it like thousands of times, people [ __ ] on the next generation, right?

Like that's definitely not me. If anything, I think they have an edge, right? A technological edge. Uh me, I grew up on World of Warcraft and Call of Duty and and all of that, like being the the best in my server. And I think that gave me like an unfair advantage. Um I see like uh sometimes boomers have a really hard time in this market. They're tech illiterate even if COVID happened.

Like I mean some of them still use pen and paper and taking Warren for example. But Warren's uh Warren can do whatever he wants, right? He's quite he's quite good at at what he does. Um but uh the leites I mean the leites argument I heard it many times on this bud you know it's it's not a machine it's a replacement because um me for example I let go of my 250 employees about three years ago replaced them at AI never been happier and more successful and also if we just take the experiment to the market later on like a company

will they hire an agent or will they hire an employee knowing that the agent doesn't fail knowing that the agent will deliver on day one knowing that the agent learns faster and and can propagate and immediately connect to their API and learn about their propriety read their data for example. Um, so yes, there will be humans that will manage like various agents in these companies.

But what I'm saying is that let's say that I'm a student, I'm coming out and I'm looking for a job. I'm literally competing with an AI agent knowing that at least like 70% of businesses, modern businesses, they'll be digital, right? Like there'll be in front of a screen. If it's like physical and that working like a robot in a shop, I do agree with you that will be a bit harder to replace.

But short term I feel it's not like a machine, right? It's it's really like a brain and a human. It's like a human extension, don't you think? So you you see a crumbling of employ of of employment basically. Yeah. Yeah. Big one. Um starting slowly but surely like the only thing that's uh preventing the floodgates from breaking right now, I think it's uh it's one human conventions, right?

So humans have quote unquote ethics or comfort zone, right? they they don't want to go for the new tech. They're just comfortable with their current employees. Um there's laws as well. And last but not least, there's just open AI um delaying the launch of uh operator again for ethical reasons and not to break the world apart because if they do that, uh they they're going to get the PR [ __ ] storm, right?

Uh they're everyone's going to point their finger at operator and they're going to be like, "Hey, they just killed the universe." and then the company will go to flames because humans being what they are, they'll just [ __ ] on Open AI. People will start boycotting Open AI. So, I think that's really what they're waiting for. And that's that's like groundbreaking this moment.

And I'm pretty sure these are the conversations they're they're having behind closed walls. Maybe they're waiting for someone to to deploy first, right? Their agent think this company and then they'll launch after or something. But maybe you've used operator yourself. It's just not complete, right? It's an agent that buys your your flight ticket. Yeah.

Yeah. No, no, no. Exactly. Look, yeah, what you're saying makes sense. Like it's like a what you're saying is that the level of disruptions uh is much higher than any other disruption that happened before. And that's what makes this this change this revolution different than the others. Yeah. Yeah. It might be um the the and what you're saying as well is that once companies going to cross the chasm, right?

like be like when the actually the technology really is going to be mainstream and not just going to be a nice to have technological tool uh then it's going to be like disrupting completely employment right yeah because there's no very agi like agent right now because is always that that company right like chipd was groundbreaking as an assistant I mean assistants nowadays you know if you have

chipd can do pretty much like 95% of what they But yeah, who who really cares, you know, like assistant, no one really hires a lot of them. I think it assistants are definitely not going to resist that revolution. But yeah, once they deploy AdSA, I think it's going to be uh pretty pretty groundchanging. I think agents, you know, there's uh I'm building agents, you know, with some of my companies like sales agents for example, and what they are right now, it's like uh you can picture like a Zap year, right?

the Frankenstein Zapier connecting all kinds of applications together and it's more like automation than it is real agents and I think if there's one company that's going to crack it is obviously open air. Want to ask you a couple of more questions because we only have two minutes here. Uh you said that as a leader in in in special forces you you only lost two uh two soldiers.

like tell me like precisely about your deployment and the the challenges that you faced back then and how how you solved them. uh precisely. Uh oh man, there was a lot of different missions, right? I've been in 13 countries. Uh it was um it goes from extraction to uh factf finding missions. Um team of like anywhere between six and 18 or 15, you know, that's the biggest which is very different from like typical infantry, you know, like the the key things of like the special forces is the level of um isolation we can sustain.

We're literally isolated from the rest of the world. there is no there is no uh supply chain there is no like and there's even missions where the chain of commands is extremely lean right so which means that we're like on on Black Ops for example we're we're we're being we're being sent without and if we're being captured uh the French governments will not uh you know will not recognize us as operating units right so yeah

so it's very I would say it's very different than the the typical army and it's also very entrepreneurship in that sense, right? Because it's very small teams that have to that have to um uh achieve a goal that is uh ex like very precise with a short period of time that is very intense and where you know if you take mavity's word right where the obligations of results trumps the obligations of means right which the army really work on obligation of means but the special forces really work on

the opposite on the obligation of results so yeah that's that's where that's what really I would I've been in the army for example because I would think that the level of um the lack of um I would say individualisms or ability to make calls on on the on on on the go is is fairly limited. Not exactly limited but fairly limited. Special forces is the opposite.

So yeah, this is what I really liked in it, you know, and and feeling that you can that you can make your body a machine is is also a great you know like sports or runner like you really realize that you can make anything you want. And I remember like our guys was telling you know pain is just an information all the time and it's true you can do and then he was saying like you can do whatever you want with information you can either you know cave in uh to that or just uh take it in and just yeah it's pain and and we keep going you know yeah I'm following this

guy a son of cam a which has a nice uh book about entrance and bow hunting like in the the David Gogggins type of category and He he has this saying um it's just pain. It's just pain, you know. It's it's just pain. It's a piece of information like you said and you decide what you do with it. Do you do you become a crybaby or uh do do you do you understand that this is growth?

Right. So I guess we need to do a round two uh pretty soon because we only scratched the surface here. But till then where can people find out more about you? Um I mean I think yeah I got a couple of um if you go my LinkedIn this is probably like my biggest channel and YouTube you can find like I've done like a couple of interviews there or you know on on my LinkedIn there's a couple of piece of uh of interviews there as well.

So yeah. Perfect. So that was Idris Alifi.