Mario Nawfal: X Spaces, free speech, and monetizing media through background business models

welcome to another founder wisdom pod with Mario Nal we had a nice SP uh last time we spoke about two months ago Mario is founder at IBC group also CEO there and founder and host at xtown Hall uh yeah he's always front page on Twitter cool guy uh unconventional guy so we're gonna have fun again today this podcast is brought to you by my podcasting company it's

called ppar.com if you want to start and scale your podcast on convention way Mario welcome to the bot again uh tell us a bit more about yourself and what you've been up to since the New Year good to have you man um so name is Mario I'm pretty big in crypto been in business for over a decade and I host the xtown hall on on X on Twitter which is the largest show the largest space on Twitter so it takes up a lot of my time good to see you again man so um it's a very cool operation you have there U it's a media company we could call it that way how much humans um and what is your goal this year in terms of cash in terms of accomplishment in terms of who

you'll have on uh the in your rooms give us a a brief overview here sure so in terms of of targets that I have is that what a question is right um questions and also give us an overview of the business because I guess most people are not familiar with uh that business model of yours sure so so there's there's two companies that I have um the first one is fudy which is an e-commerce business in the health Wellness industry I launched that one about 12 years ago now maybe 11 years ago still exists today I'm not involved in it I haven't been involved for for a few years now still exist today in a few about 20 countries and it's doing really well it had a really good year last year so that's a

a stable healthy boring business which I love and then so I have an Ecom background that's where where where I I started where I made my money and then I got into crypto in 2017 launched IBC which is one of the larger incubators and marketing agencies in the space did really well in 2017 did really well in 2020 and doing extremely well this year probably our best

year this year and last year our best uh best period and then I launched the show xtown Hall so I used to be really big on clubhouse I replicated it on Twitter and that one kind of got a life of its ons we've had Senators we've had politicians we've had a lot of big names I think the the biggest bace I did in the last maybe month was the one with the Elon and Andrew Tay Alex Jones be ramaswami Jason kakan has jumped in a few other names I can't remember so I was one of the the biggest spaces that I've done in the past month but I've done a whole bunch of them I've covered a lot of breaking news topics and I got that's probably what got my name out there unexpectedly so

whenever there's breaking news we're hosting it and now we do three four shows a day seven days a week or five days a week maybe a couple of shows on weekend and we do everything from AI to crypto to finance to we're going to start biohacking we do gaming and obviously we do news in politics we do almost a daily space of news in politics but the most important thing is whenever there's breaking news we're there to cover it in an unbias an objective way we became the place that people go to for news instead of going to CNN instead of going to Fox News very impressive and how does one monetize all of that monetizing through boring ways like sponsorships either doesn't work or is just peanuts in terms of money making you have

to build a business in the background so like we have a business in the background we don't monetize the news and politics show we don't directly monetize that even say we don't indirectly monetize it we monetize the other shows the gaming the AI the crypto because we've got the incubator the tech incubator in the background so we get a lot of deal flow from it so I

think anyone that is building a media and that's looking to monetize from the media itself it's just not the smartest way to monetize look at Logan Paul for example good example that everyone knows the majority of his money is from his drink that's how he monetized it Mr Beast his restaurant Mr Beast Berg or whatever it's called so you could still monetize from ad spots you if

you look at the top names you know the Joe Rin Lex Friedman you can still make money from sponsorships but the real moneyy is building a business in the background all the richest people in the world didn't make their money from me right and in the case of your AI show for example do the sponsors find you online do they just ask you hey look and I sponsor sponsor that show is it a th000 bucks 10,000 bucks per show like how does that go so they find us they reach out to us we also talk about it but we focus on the incubation so most of our projects come in and they get their they they work with our incubator they give us shares or tokens depending on what project it is and they come

on our show as well so we try not to have people just coming on the show for the sake of the show we try to have people become clients so they can get on the show so again you can see all the focus is on the incubation in the business side of the the company then when you get these big names on the shows how do you prepare for them how do you like rainstorm a list of question with your team and how do you make sure that you're in an optimal State when you interview them very rare that I have to prepare Imran Khan the former prime minister of Pakistan was probably the highest profile interview I did were I prepped for but others they they just come on and we have a chat

whether the ramaswami or or Elon has been there been on for for a bunch of times or any other Senator and stuff they're coming to discuss the topic and we have a panel with us so it's not just me running it it's not like a one-on-one interview like this is a panel different speakers and they all interview or they all sit there chatting with our special guest

how do you choose your panel your wingman because yeah you want to choose the right people if you're like oh man here he go here he goes again and ask a crappy question like how do you choose your team yeah haven't done a great job at this I think just listening to people that have done it already training them and we have a team in the background like a producer in the background that's always giving them feedback but the most important thing that I look for someone that's objective and unbiased at least for the news side so our whole brand our whole reputation is not being biased because obviously mainstream media is all biased one side or another in some way so we try not to be biased and that the host has to either

be unbiased which is almost impossible to find or at least have the ability to put their biases aside but I've had a few bad choices when it comes to hosts but in general I think we've done well I mean you've had Elon and a bunch of prominent folks on the Pod who do you model nowadays so who do I consider a model I I I learn from a lot of people I think I I get to learn from everybody even people I disagree with for example the space with Elon Tate um Jason Kellis and Alex Jones I disagree profusely with a lot of what Alex Jones says and some of what Andrew Tate says and I agree with a lot of what Jason kakanis says and Elon says but I learned from all four of

them there's a lot of interesting things I learned even from Alex Jones who we disagree on most things and definitely from Andrew Tate and obviously there's always things to learn from Jason calakas vasami and um Jas and Elon I mean Jason he's kind of a Elon servant you know like if you study him and his reactions always supporting Elon you know I think he has the EO

syndrome or something what was in interesting is was listening to Alex Jones and Andrew Tate which are not yes men's usually uh but if you study psychology was kind of interesting to listen to that conversation I mean they weren on elon's platform right and Tate is like biased not to get banned because he's been banned pretty much everywhere and he sees Twitter as a money source so

what was your uh psychological analysis of that I think it was a very Frank conversation I think it's the best way to put it like a lot of them didn't feel like they're in an interview they felt like they're on a phone call and Alex really wanted the opportunity to speak to Elon so he really appreciated it Elon had a c certain perception of of Alex and

they kind of went back and forth and discussed it and they didn't agree but at least they managed to discuss it together but it was a very open conversation like I think you you don't get such conversations anywhere else not only having those people on stage all at the same time but having the conversation they were having the openness and and the rawness of it is something

you don't see anyone else so we have a lot of speakers that call the show a call like hey I'm jumping on this call or I'm jumping off this call but that's our show because it's just Audio Only and they can jump in and out it's like they click a button they get up because I accept their request and they can just jump off and we've had you know you're talking about Elon for example elon's been on once and he was preparing for a board meeting with Tesla and he's like dressing up you can hear him zip up his pants and stuff and he's on show that was another another episode or V ramaswami went to the bathroom and forgot his mic unmuted and he's sitting there peeing in the bathroom that's something I can't

do while talking to you right now and that makes it more like a phone call makes it more real private so what is the right framework to have a conversation with someone you disagree with nowadays and what do you have to say of those calls uh between vs like the political or politician debates that we see during elections nowadays two things number one ask questions number two

listen that's it easier said than done but asking questions and listening does allows you to learn allows you to open your mind and these have been some of the most interesting conversations I've had whether it's about the Ukraine Russia War what what what if if it's about the China us tensions or obviously the war in Gaza I've learned the most by listening to the people I disagree

with the election process nowadays it feels like a puppet show you know and there's these politicians going at each other's throats for the entertainment of the crowds what would you change to that process and how would you make the electoral process better specifically in US I can't talk about how I'd make the electoral process better I'm not involved in it in any way I don't understand really

how it works I think the from a holistic approach something I've said when it comes to censorship is decentralization you have to decentralized power that's what a democracy is all about so the more influence politicians have more or even worse the more influence or power unelected officials have the the worse it's going to be because as soon as you centralize power within a bunch of humans human

imperfection kicks in and that includes greed that includes um which leads to corruption and that includes biases that includes emotions that shouldn't be there when making important decisions um anecdotal anecdotal emotions so I think as the more the US heads to decentralizing different aspects of our society and our systems the better it is the more it centralizes and gets closer to countries like China the more concerning

it will be and while for example China's going well right now I worry when power centralized that what happens when you leaders take over what happens is if the next xiin ping when shiin ping dies what happens if the next one is not as emotionally stable for example have has the wrong wrong Ambitions I think centralized power we've seen throughout history just does not work that well

so it's got to be more decentralized it's got to be somewhere in the middle yeah uh I mean a lot of tyrants would argue that they brought stability and us has even sponsored uh Tyrant regimes especially in South America but yeah human right activists would certainly argue the contrary where does freedom of speech and you know when people start saying falsehoods about you and probably r ruining

your livelihood um is it the right moment where the law needs to intervene and you need to sue them for defamation or should it be like a free-for-all pretty much all the time right so on the first point about the US sponsoring tyan and stuff obviously um there's a lot of similar examples and on the one of tyan working generally speaking throughout history look at genocides and

stuff it's it's centralizing power you want you don't want one person making all the decisions you want a group of people that hold each other accountable so you don't have the one party risk or the one man risk so let's go to the second about freedom of speech obviously I'm I'm for freedom of speech and anti- censorship I've been very vocal about it that's what x stands

for what elon's fighting for I'm fighting for that but I also understand there is downsides to it I've been victim to the downsides of it you know I've been I was attacked heavily after the Russian Mutiny space and I was um defamed very heavily but there's a legal system there for a reason that's why I love countries like the US Western Europe Australia you Advanced countries advanced

economies because there is a legal system you could use when someone does you wrong and that legal system is what protected me I was able to take legal action against anyone that was um breaking the law defamation is breaking the law but it's a bit tough it's tough because it's hard to prove defamation that's number one number two like it wasn't for me it was it wasn't

tough because it was just too clear and the financial damage was very evident but for others that don't have that benefit it's very tough number one to prove defamation number two to prove damages as well and number three to have the money to pursue that legally so then your question will be like cool so is freedom of speech okay is it okay to be able to fully

cancel someone just because you don't agree with them just because they don't have the money to sue you and that's where you get into murky territory because if you say no it's not okay then I'm all right the decisions need to be made but then you need to be able to prevent those things from happening okay who prevents them we put a group that censors content right

now you're centralizing power of censorship or Free Speech within a group group and what if that gets corrupted we saw what happened with Twitter files a couple of years ago so before Elon Twitter started censoring based on their own biases and then corruption kicks in people were getting paid to ban accounts so soon you start centralizing power you go back to the same problems you got two

evils one is freedom of speech that leads to things like defamation misinformation and disinformation and um full or or censorship centralized censorship which to which leads to to to human imperfections corruption Etc so the balance is somewhere in the middle where like I think Community notes is a good example decentralizing censorship Community notes on Twitter is the best example of that I'm definitely Pro freedom of speech

I did um was I was defamed too I mean any successful entrepreneur have been the fame at at some point or the other and sometimes it's yeah more evil it's like yo let's group up and let's make sure that this kid doesn't have business again um it's angry people it's human emotions in the end but what what I'm really against for nowadays is the old fortunes I

call them and these folks uh at the top of society they seem to thrive of secrecy they seem to their their little moat is secrecy you know while I think that new blood is more Silicon Valley like and is open source they make it at the top but they share their whole recipe there so how do you make sure on your end to share a trail of knowledge and inspiration for the next gen well I think we we through our spaces we have a lot of people that You' consider part of the the group that wants secrecy they influential they're powerful but they don't want to talk about it we did a world economic Forum space yesterday we had a lot of analysts on we've had decision makers come on our store we're talking to

presidents and prime ministers right now to come on the space we got one already confirmed of one of the largest economies in the world that's going to be coming on the show so I think that having a platform in which they could not only talk about what they believe but debate and and take hard questions is um you know it's kind of opening up opening up the

information opening up to to everyone's eyes to things that they wouldn't know and perspectives they wouldn't usually believe in and our focus on keeping things balance means that there's always going to be both sides they're always going to debate it's always going to have interesting perspectives and the listeners always going to hear part they agree with and the part they disagree with to make up their mind

yo do you have 15 more minutes because I I just saw that we had 15 more on the agenda um I have if it's okay I do have to jump off in two minutes I don't want to be rud yeah that's fine um okay regarding this one last question because I'm a technologist and the potential solution to freedom of speech is to or have some kind of AI to calculate how people would react to some pieces of information because freedom of speech might go too far when you offend someone or you limit someone or you create cortisol or adrenaline in someone but then the counterargument to that is that you're not necessarily responsible for these people's reactions right so if you would check a system of the future let's say that for 25 years in

the future there's neural links you can calculate the emotional reactions of people uh when it comes to what you're saying is it my responsibility to not offend people because I tend to chase the truth pretty much all the time I was I was I was I was having Char that's a good question I was having that debate with a close friend three days ago It's tricky because

I'm I'm I'm also I hate offending people like I'm very empathetic so I'm always careful if you want to be called he she it s sure whatever I don't mind I call it if you want to sleep with with 10 guys at the same time and you're a guy and if you want to sleep with with someone who's 70 years old or someone who's 20 years old like for each his own as long as you don't cause other people harm I don't really care but I also worry about people being too sensitive like there's things I cannot say like there's groups I cannot criticize because IM me they jump on your neck they try to cancel you and they use certain labels on you to try to to bring it down so now it gets

very very very tricky because you want to be open you want to have the ability to speak your mind but at the same time you don't want to offend people and how do you draw the line more importantly who draws the line so it's a tricky balance I think it's no simple answer to it I'm I'm always leaning towards free speech and but I'm also cognizant of the the the harms it could bring the solution is going to be very tricky as long as we come up with a solution that doesn't involve having a small group of people decide what can be said what cannot be said as long as a solution doesn't have that I'm fine but as soon as you get that small group of people they could be perfect there could be

a group of people that do an incredible job they censor the content that should be censored they allow the content they should be allowed and I applaud them but what happens when they replaced and they replaced again eventually it's going to be a group that's not going to have the right intentions and that centralization of power is going to backfire so this where it gets tricky you've

got social media platforms that were censoring they were doing a great job at the beginning but as they got bigger and they have new people coming in it started getting Messier and started getting out of control again put a pre on as a good example right in the case of Twitter space Maybe some rules and some presets right before they join the conversation like one open your

mind two uh this is the model if you feel offended like rethink or something like that maybe just State some of no I don't I don't I don't even I don't even state it they want to be I don't want them to know if they're offended I want them to come on and be offended live on stage and decide to leave like I want that rawness to it about them being open-minded I don't need them openminded because I want them to be I don't mind close-minded people because I have close-minded people from both sides let them Clash let the audience decide what they like I've had extreme on the Gaza War because this is very fresh I've had extreme Pro Israelis that think Palestine should all be part of Israel and at no job like

should no not be any Palestine or Palestinian should be either in should be moved to the Arab countries and they've got extremists on the other side that think Israel shouldn't exist and all of it should be called Palestine and Jews don't belong there so you got like extreme two extremes and they come on together and debate live on stage there's no better content and what did you

get out of that what's your stake and your stance on Israel gu as a last dialogue will fix it I think there's a small group of people that are not allowing it to happen from both sides not allowing a two-state solution to happen but surprisingly despite this issue having been there for so many decades you know it's prior to October 7th prior to to the 1990s prior

to the 1970s prior to the 1940s like it's such an old old issue that I was surprised as how quickly opposing sides managed to meet in the middle live on stage and if they were able to do it I'm sure politicians would be able to do it if there's only dialogue if they sit on the same table without foreign interference and come to a solution I genuinely

think a solution will be reached but then again I could be naive because look how many decades it's been all right thank you Mario where can people find out more about you online I just just Google me guys and Twitter probably that is the best place